Episode 14: A Food Scientist’s Take on GMOs, Chemicals in Food, and Organic with Nia Dianda
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Episode Transcript
Participant #1:
All right. Hi, guys. Welcome back to the upbeat Dietitians podcast. Hello, guys. We are joined today with another very special guest. We are actually joined today with a food scientist, which is really cool. And one of our College friends and colleagues and her name is Mia. And today we'll be talking a lot about GMOs chemicals and food, organic food, all that fun stuff and we'll be able to hear about it from a food scientist perspective, which is really awesome. So just to start off, you want to tell us about yourself, what you do, any past education, we talk about hobbies, the floor is yours. Hi, guys. My name is Mia and I'm a food scientist based in the Aloha State, Rainbow State, Hawaii. Yay super fun. I met Emily and Hannah during my time at Purdue. I was actually co workers with Emily and we did a super fun job. Am I right? Very job. I guess I met Hannah just in passing because Hannah and Emily always hang out together. And then whenever Hannah, Emily is there, Hannah is sometimes there true. My major is food science and I kind of graduated around the same time as them and a little bit more about me. So I am from Indonesia and I moved to the US in 2015 for College. And then after I graduated in 2019, I moved to Hawaii because my boyfriend at the time right now, my fiance is currently stationed here in the Navy. Yeah. Nia has a really cool background story. I feel like you've traveled so much and it's so cool when you hear about people going in another country for College because I only want to stayed over. So it's not that exciting. Whereas you went across the world. But yeah, you can also tell us about your work. What do you do as a food scientist? And what exactly does that look like? Since some people might not know what food scientists do. Yeah. So right now, I'm just actually in between jobs. So when I was in the food industry, I used to work in the regulatory side. So more like food safety, making sure that people don't get killed when they eat a company. And I was working in a food company, too. So basically, I was the one that makes sure that everyone in the company makes the food properly and safely and also dealing with third party auditors and stuff like that. Right now, I am doing kind of like a part time consulting and research gig for small businesses here in Hawaii. Just kind of like a freelancer. A lot of people have asked me. So what does the food scientists actually do? Because a lot of people automatically think it's, like, linked to nutrition or like some sort of cooking thing, like culinary. But it's actually not any of that because food science is actually a field that includes chemistry, biochemistry, microbiology, physics, engineering, some nutrition, some biology and math. So basically every science thing you have ever learned, we learn it and apply it in food science. And with that, the job possibilities are endless. So I know a lot of food scientists really want to do product research and development, which is probably like the more fun side of food science, which means that you make new products that you see on the shelf, like the weirdest things that you see in the supermarket right now. Those are probably created by food scientists and chefs working together. And then another career option would be regulatory affairs. So like something similar to what I did. Basically, we just keep our food supply safe from killing people. And you can also work in the private sector as a third party auditor to just go to food companies and audit them, and you get paid to travel and audit them, which is pretty cool. Or you can also work for the government, like USDA, FDA and stuff like that. You can also do some, like consumer research, psychology. So basically, you kind of study how they perceive food through sensory levels. You could also go through the academia route. So teaching, becoming a professor in food science, which is what a lot of food science majors end up doing for some reason, because I do have a lot of colleagues that end up in academia and research. So basically improving food and beverage texture, taste, analyzing different methods of food processing, et cetera, and process engineering. So basically you can design and develop new food processing systems, new ways to store food and package food and handling food. Like, the possibilities are endless. That's very cool. Yeah. Food science is crazy. There's so much you can do. And I feel like I just hear about what you do. And I don't know what's going on. Although you were making different types of, like, milks. I remember when I talked to you last, I often conspired in Mia about new food things and also sustainability. I was talking about the whole almond milk. Alum. I know I talked about that on a previous episode, but NIA was the one who actually told me about the need for how much water is utilized to create, however much almond milk. Yeah, that's actually true. Like almond is not the most sustainable product out there. So then I guess our last question for a little about you section is, what do you like to do for fun? Because the people know your education, they know what you do as a food scientist and what food scientists possibly can do. But with your free time, especially having time in Hawaii, which most people don't really have all those resources to them. What do you like to do for fun? Actually, I'm a boring person. I don't like having fun, and I just work all the time. I'm just kidding.
Participant #1:
That's not me. That's my CRM. He just works all the time. But anyways, yeah, in my free time, I actually really like doing digital art, so drawing and also like cooking and trying a bunch of new food places. And who doesn't like eating right? And like in Hawaii, there's just so many good food places because it's like a cultural melting pot here. You literally can get any food imaginable and the hybrid of it. So like, any fusion food, you can literally get it here. And it's amazing. I also love going to the gym, working out, lifting weight, and specifically in Hawaii. While I'm still here, I also really like swimming in the ocean, like snorkeling trying to find sea turtles here and there and occasionally hiking as a social thing to get along with people because hiking is tiring, and I'm not a huge fan of being sweaty like that, but I do it for friends. Neil will go on a hike for friendship, friendship. There you go.
Participant #1:
Okay. So I guess our first question actually was, what is food scientist and what do their everyday responsibilities look like? But you kind of already touched on that. And I guess this is kind of more. So do you have anything else you'd like to add? I know we already kind of drilled you about this, and people always mistaken me as someone who can give nutritional advice or someone that can Cook really well, which I can't, but I can't Cook, but I'm not certified to do any of that. Just to clarify, we appreciate it. We're here to educate and help people understand more what these different professions do. Yeah, NEA wasn't some of our classes at Purdue, but it was more so like the science nutrition classes. Definitely not like the counseling MNT therapy kind of MNT. Yeah. I remember those days when you guys were just, like, dying in that MIT class. Yeah. Well, let's jump into kind of our first specific question, I guess then. So, NIA, I know GMOs are probably something you get asked about all the time. But let's ask you again, will you tell us what a GMO is and what its purpose and maybe touch on the safety of it as well? Like, are they as harmful as people kind of think they are? Yeah. So actually, I'm Super passionate about just educating people about GMOs and a lot of things that people unnecessarily fear about what's in their food supply. And yeah, I can probably go on for hours about GMO, but I will cut it short for you guys. So GMOs, basically they stand for genetically modified organisms. So according to the Institute of Food Technologists, which is a bunch of food science nerds making an organization FYI, they are simply crops or bacteria or like organisms that are produced through the introduction of pieces of DNA that allows them to have desirable traits. Gmos have actually been applied in our food system since way back in the day, when farmers in the 1800 100. And whenever farming started to happen, they realized that, oh, some plans actually have better traits than others. And then they start to think, like, what if we make some kind of hybrid thing where if we cross breed them, then they might just have better qualities in their next generation? And so on. And actually, those traditional methods of crossmuting is also considered general. And without them, we actually wouldn't have common food products that we see today look like what it is today. So, for example, like a watermelon, it won't be as big as it is today. Corn probably won't look like corn. I don't know what corn in the 1700 was like. I have no idea, but a lot of the really common food items now they are a product of traditional methods of genetic modification that has been applied for a very long time. But then again, can you imagine how long it took them to cross breathe and do all those trial and errors and then just hope and wait and see if the outcome of their cross leading is actually what they want. And so that really took a lot of time to just do that. That's why GMO has been introduced recently because it is a much faster and efficient way to create those desirable traits that all these farmers want in our food and our food system. I know there has been a lot of controversy with GMOs. A lot of people are really scared of it for some reason, but they're actually really safe. They're very efficient compared to the traditional crossword methods that I mentioned earlier. And they're actually really necessary to feed the world's growing population. Right now. They
Participant #1:
actually reduce crop losses by developing resistance to common pests without the use of pesticide. As a result, it will increase the yield of the crops, and it's actually better for the environment because you use less chemicals to treat the plants. Right? Because the chemicals can get washed off in the water system and everything, and the plants can actually be adjusted to adapt to harsh growing conditions, which again, will help so many people who are in really dry or really cold area. They can also increase the nutritional content by genetic modification. So, for example, like vitamin A and golden rice. And they can also improve desirable characteristics for the food. So, for example, they can reduce the allergenicity pronouncing. That right. Allergenicity means meaning that it's not going to cause a severe allergic reaction as much. It could also delay ripening for flavor improvement. So apparently, if a tomato sticks on the plant longer while the ripening process is slowed down, then it could create more sweeter tomatoes. And also another example would be creating potatoes with reduced starch content. So when you turn them into fries, they actually absorb less fat during frying. Isn't that really cool? That's so interesting. I did not know about that. Yeah. I want to ask you, like, how they create that, but I feel like that'd take like another 40 minutes and it probably way over my head. Yeah, I know. I'd be like, genetics is not my forte, so I actually don't know how to answer your questions. That's okay. We'll just be amazed. Also, another fun fact, GMOs are not just used in plants and the food that we eat. They also use it in bacteria to create, for example, like insulin. A lot of people really need insulin. And like, the traditional ways of creating insulin is actually really expensive. So without GMOs, insulin will be as accessible as it is today. That's really cool. I didn't know that either. Actually. Well, there is a lot of fear mongering around GMOs. Can you kind of let our listeners know why there's no need to be fearful around these GMOs and how you've already kind of mentioned how they're so helpful. But maybe what are some of the common myths people are kind of hearing and why they're not true? The biggest problem surrounding GMOs is that a lot of people fear what they don't know, and a lot of consumers are not really educated of what it is, and they really don't understand what GMOs are. So that's why there's a lot of fear mongering and misinformation that is created by the media or bloggers. So many bloggers out there, I can dive into some of the most popular GMO myths that I've heard. Some of them actually sound pretty funny. So the first myth is people think that GMOs are unnatural, but that's not true because, like I said earlier, humans have been selected in breeding crops and animals for centuries. I mean, just look at the Pomeranian. Do you think that's not a GMO, right? That was good. I love that. Yeah,
Participant #1:
I mean, the term natural and nutrition in general is just like, not even a term that really means anything. So I can see why that myth is just, like, so easily debunked.
Participant #1:
Yeah. I will talk about that later, too. The term natural. Yeah. And then I guess another myth that people have been believing is that. Okay. Hear me out. This sounds very ridiculous. Gmos are a corporate plot to control developing nations and their food supply. So basically a lot of corporations, they just want to take over the world through making people hungry or something. But it's actually false because a lot of developing nations actually prefer farming GMO crops because it does produce more crops, and it helps alleviate hunger. And they actually benefit the poorest nations the most because of that. And also with the fortification part, too. Some people on the other side of the world, they're lacking a lot of vitamins, and without GMOs, they wouldn't be as healthy as they are today. And another myth that people believe is that GMOs are not adequately tested and therefore they're bad for you. So this is like a lot of things that people have been talking about in the media because that's what they're basing their fears on. But actually, GMOs are one of the most regulated food products out there because a lot of governments everywhere they employ tricks, bio safety protocols to ensure that any new GMO product poses no threat to human or animal health or the environment. So these protocols include laboratory and field tests that may spend years and years, and the resulting plants and foods are far more thoroughly tested than their conventional counterparts. Another myth is that people believe is that GMOs are unhealthy and that's actually false because the prestigious National Academies of Science agrees with a lot of US regulatory agencies that food grown from GMO crops are actually really safe to eat, and they're no riskier than consuming the same foods containing ingredients from normal crops and non GMOs. And another way to see how GMOs are healthier is how I mentioned earlier that some GMO plans are resistant to test, so they don't require any pesticides, which means that you're getting less pesticides in your food. So it's actually healthier. And like, I can do all the studies that scientists have done in GMOs, but they have not found that GMO foods are any riskier or nutritionally better than their conventional counterparts. Thank you for that. I feel like a very good summary of a lot of the most common GMO myths, and you brought a good rebuttal for all of them. And I hope that people really do understand that GMOs were created to help us and not set us back in any way or any type of scheme taking over the world.
Participant #1:
Yeah. So I think our next section that we wanted to discuss with you was a lot of people talk about the chemicals in food and how I was anything specifically leading any leading questions right there. But I'm sure for everyone listening, you have heard at one point in your life, someone say, look at all these chemicals in this food. I'm not going to eat that because of the chemicals.
Participant #1:
Love to hear from you, your take on chemicals and food and kind of we can start with what their purpose is and then lead into like we do with GMOs. Are they harmful and specific examples of them? Yeah. So I think I can correct your statement a little bit, because if you really think about it, everything around us is made of chemicals from the water that we drink and the air that we breathe. It's actually a chemical.
Participant #1:
When you say chemicals and food, everything is already made of chemicals. Yeah. So I guess before I answer your question, I want to give you guys a pop quiz. I did not realize we're getting quizzes today. Let's see how we do. No. Okay. I'm going to read these three chemicals and you have to guess what food product this belongs to. The first one is linolenic acid. The second one is Kyle Quinoa. I think I pronounced that right. And then the third one is two methylbutylassenuate. For normal people, those chemicals probably sound very scary, right? Oh, my gosh. It sounds so chemistry. But can you guess what food this belongs to? Okay. I have to be honest, I accidentally just saw the answer.
Participant #1:
I went to go look at what the other two were because I'm remembering the little Lennon and then my eyes skip. So I feel like, well, what I will say is, is it little Lennox Omega six. So that's my contribution. Yeah. That's probably in a lot of stuff. Yeah, I saw it too. I was peeking. Not on purpose, but because before you even said, don't look, I was looking. Can you tell everyone what it is? It's a banana, people.
Participant #1:
Yeah. I have seen that meme of the picture of the banana and like, the 80,000 ingredients that are in it, which are all just like the chemical components. And it is very eye opening. Yeah. They should put nutrition labels on bananas. That would be your Margaret casting, though. So I guess what are you on, Emily? I was on the side of chaos for, like, 5 seconds, and I'm like, yes, it's like just fruit and vegetables and the things that you can literally take off, like a tree or a Bush that people consider natural or whatever have so many chemicals in it. But just because you don't recognize the name, I've heard so many times where if you don't know what all the ingredients are in the label, then don't buy that product. And I think the only people that are going to know probably all the ingredients are like food scientists.
Participant #1:
Yeah. Constructed it. So I don't think that's a great philosophy to follow because you will not be eating a lot of food. See example a you can't eat a banana if you didn't know what those three were, you're going to be starving to this if you follow that rule. I can't imagine if people start freaking out when they hear dihydrogen monoxide. That's one of my favorite ones. Yeah. Which water people have to say me. I'm like, you got to tell the people that it was. Also,
Participant #1:
I think there's a website that is anti dihydrogen
Participant #1:
monoxide. That's it, right? Yeah. It's satire. It's not real. They're not actually trying to cancel water, but since I think the purpose I'll have to link it or something because it's so funny. But the purpose of creating that website was to kind of lean on that misinformation. But this website really was honing on the fact that using these bigger scientific words as, like fear mongering tactics and just kind of not because you understand it right away. What the word is doesn't mean you should fear it. I guess it's normal for people to be scared of things that they don't know. But as consumers, we also need to educate ourselves properly, not through blogs.
Participant #1:
Okay. Should I even mention a specific blog name? It's not bad. Do it. Yeah, well, they can follow blogs by, like, food scientists. I feel like that'd be like checking the credibility of the blogger if they provide their resources. That's the most important thing. The biggest fear monger misinformation blogger out there is the Food Babe. I think everybody knows this at this point. Have you heard of her? I've heard of her. It's not the food science Babe. No.
Participant #1:
Is she the one that used to call herself a nutrition guru? No, that's Meow mix or whatever her name is? Yes. Okay, wait. Side note. No, she's not a dietitian. Okay. She also has a huge following for talking about nutrition all the time. But anyway, back to the Food Babe. Yeah, I'm going to look her up right now because I feel like I've heard of her. Yeah. What type of content does she have just to provide some background to the audience, I guess. Sorry, yesterday her page so that I can protect myself from them with information. But I've just heard in passing from other professionals in the food industry about this person. She's very well known within the community as someone that's very misleading. I just read, like, the first post I saw says Won't hijack your taste buds with addicting chemicals. They're talking about Chickfila sandwich. Oh, my gosh. Like MSG. Yeah. Yes, this is definitely talking about. I see where you're talking about the ingredients that someone might not understand what it means, but she lists a lot of them. I don't know what Chickfila did to her recently, but she's going after them.
Participant #1:
I think that'll be interesting to do an episode about MSG. Yes, MSG is another. Neil will bring you back on
Participant #1:
MSG.
Participant #1:
I know. He actually, since he's unemployment right now. I brought him a bag of MSG for deployment. I'm really serious. Fun fact that's how much I support MSG. I remember at Fence in 2019. It was Emily. Yeah, right. They had a whole booth at this conference that we go to on MSG, and they gave me, like a giant bottle of just like MSG to put on your food. Like MSG itself had a whole table to themselves. It was great. I didn't get a bottle of MSG. I think it was by the Quaker Oats booth, and I don't know why I remember that, but I do very vividly. It's like very vivid in my brain. For some reason, I'll take your word for it. Okay. Back to the topic. Yes. I was about to say like, we got it. We do this sometimes just sidetracked. I guess when you guys talk to me about not talk to me. Sorry. When you guys ask me about the chemicals in food. I think a lot of people are referring to food attitudes because those are usually the ones that people are not familiar with. Right? Food additives. By definition, they're actually substances that are added to food, like anything that is added to food that is not found in the food naturally. So they can be preservative vitamins and minerals, flavors, colors, sweeteners, evening agents, emulsifiers, stabilizers and thickeners again, similar to GMOs. Very interesting. Food acts have actually been used since the olden days because back then, people don't have refrigerators. So they come up with ways to preserve their food. So even something as simple as adding salt or adding sugar, smoking vinegar. That's actually a food additive process if you really think about it. So. Yeah. Like Emily was saying earlier, a lot of people in the Internet say things like don't eat what you can't pronounce. A lot of the fear that comes with this food analysis that they don't know about is because of fear based marketing and fear mongering. Like a lot of these companies, they want to promote all natural, preservative free products. But then it's actually based on the consumer fear of not knowing what it is. But instead they can just educate themselves better. It's kind of funny, but a lot of the Karens out there on the Internet will probably tell me they've done their research. Where did they get that from? I don't know. The first blog that they find when they Google about food additives, probably not the best resource. But then the only research you should believe is not from those blogs or news articles, but from peer reviewed scientific publications. Facts by science hashtag facts, not fear people. I love it. Those Darn Karens are always making waves. I know. Yeah, they're all over telling us what we should need. I think I said not directly to one of them, but like rhetorically to someone in conversation. I was like, with all this food, we shouldn't eat. It's easier just to not eat anything. Have you guys heard about the Dirty Dozen and Clean 15. Yes. I'm actually dying to hear your thoughts on that. Yeah. Okay. For those that don't know. So this is a list that is created by this organization called the Environmental Working Group, or the EWG. This list claims to be ranking fruits and vegetables based on the levels of pesticides from the dirtiest to the cleanest, but do really have to worry about all these food products because some of these food products are really, really common. Yeah. So in order to tackle that, a lot of their research is actually not true because they don't use the correct parameters to measure the pesticide residues on the food. Yeah. The EWG is actually very biased with their findings and their data because they're actually backed by big organic food companies. If that makes sense, it's funded by these companies that want to sell more organic foods. That's kind of bias. But anyways, actually, the US Department of Agriculture visits farms and collects a lot of food samples each year. There's this program by the US Department of Agriculture that collects all the information about pesticide level residues on a lot of different food products in the market right now. And out of the samples that they tested, over 99% of them had residues well below the tolerances established by the EPA, with 42% having no detectable pesticide residue at all. Yeah. And just a fun fact. I think a lot like Emily Hannon and I have heard this from several lectures when we were at Purdue because of the amount of pesticides that under textable in the food, you really need to eat a whole damn lot of it in order to have any adverse reaction, because there's so little of the pesticide recipes on the food parts per billion. Like, imagine how little that is. I found this really interesting calculator online that calculates how much food, how much serving food you can eat. It won't even affect you even if you eat this much in terms of pesticide residue level. Okay. So I am going to read the number of servings a child can consume without having any health effects from pesticides, even if it had the highest level of pesticide residues recorded by the USDA. So a child can eat 7441 servings of kale, 181 servings of strawberries and 378 servings of tomatoes. And even eating that much, they will not get an adverse reaction more likely to die from some kind of, like, vitamin overdose than pesticides. At that point, I wanted to say that I want to see 7441 servings of kale. A room that's a lot
Participant #1:
like a bed, like people make rooms that are like, the entire floor is just a bed, like an entire room. That's just kale. That'd be so fun to, like, just maybe one of these days, when someone proposes they spread flowers, they can spread flowers everywhere. They can spread this kale. That's how you use the 7000 servings of kale. How romantic. Everyone can then pick up their kale. I need it for them. Look at the shirt I'm wearing today. Oh, my God. I got my Kale shirt on. I just remembered. Yay. Perfect. What is this podcast? Sometimes I just don't know. With regards to food additives, you may see a lot of labels that says no artificial conservative, no artificial flavors, no synthetic colors, stuff like that. But a lot of these are actually marketing tactics that stems from misinformation and fear. These labels imply that certain food additives must be worth avoiding. After all, why would all these food products specifically be called out if they weren't bad for us? I think that's how they are making people think about these. But are they really that bad? And are they unsafe? And why should we? I'm sorry. Why should we be trying to avoid these food as in the first place? A quote that I found on the internet that I Super love internet, meaning the legit side of the internet. The food scientist blogger whether a chemical is naturally occurring or man made, whether or not you can pronounce it tells us nothing about its safety. I really like, especially the first part of that quote where it's like whether a chemical is naturally occurring or man made because they are naturally occurring toxins in the world and plants that you can, they're technically edible, but they will in some cases, kill you if you eat enough of it. And that's technically natural. But that does not mean that it's safe. So I really like that portion. I like the quote overall, but especially, I think that part because going back to our whole natural discussion, it fits well. Yeah. And also referring back to our discussion earlier about food additives. Every single food additive in our food supply has to thoroughly test it before it even hit the market. Because why would the government feed us stuff that is actually bad for us? There's already safety levels established for everything and the purpose of preservatives and additives most of the time is to prolong the shelf life of food. Right. And if you prolong the shelf life, it means that you prevent bacterial growth, you prevent it from going bad, you prevent it from molding and stuff. And honestly speaking, I'd rather eat food with preservatives rather than risk dying from a food borne illness. Right. Give me preservatives or give me death. Is that the phrase so dramatic? But it's the point across. Yeah, it does. We're about here. And when somebody tries to scare you about the poisonous stuff on our food preservative pesticides, they think they would tell us, oh, it can kill you because they kill insects. They kill animals, blah, blah, blah. But then again, if someone tries to scare you about how dangerous the chemical is, but then they neglect to mention the dose at which it is toxic, then they're either clueless or they're kind of deceive you because the dose is what makes the poison. It's all about the dose. Yes, that applies to so many things, too. Like
Participant #1:
water. You can easily get water poisoning by getting too much water. But you would never say that water is like, toxic or bad for you. That's just silly. So that's such a good point dose makes the poison. I love that. Okay. Let's transition into organic. I'm excited about this one. Emily and I have discussed this on the podcast already, but of course, we just have our own perspective. So it'll be great to get a food scientist perspective, but NIA, will you tell us about what organic actually means and is organic food actually healthier for us? Yeah, of course. Organic food is regulated by the USDA. And so I went to the USDA website to see what is their definition of organic food. So USDA certified organic food are grown and processed according to federal guidelines, addressing, among many factors, soil quality, animal raising practices, tests and weed control and uses of additives. Organic producers rely on natural substances and physical, mechanical or biologically based farming methods, to the fullest extent possible that's from the USDA website. So in terms of produce, which is probably the most common organic foods that we see out there. So a produce can be called organic if it's certified to have grown on soil that had no prohibited substances applied for three years prior to harvest. Prohibitive substances include most synthetic fertilizers and pesticides. So it is very important to take note of that last part that I just said most synthetic fertilizers and pesticides, it didn't stay all. A lot of the misconception with organic food is that a lot of people think that organic means pesticide free. But guess what? Organic farming uses pesticides. That's one of the things that people miss out on. So coming from the food industry perspective, I have done audits with the USDA before in terms of organic food products, and it's not like they don't allow any chemicals or anything whatsoever and make it all natural. But they just allow certain chemicals and pesticides to be used for organic products. Yeah. So somebody did a study comparing the amount of pesticides on organic foods and conventional foods. And actually, they found that there are very similar amounts of pesticide on organic foods compared to conventional foods. And they did test for different pesticides that they use in the different farming methods. But then a lot of things that you see on the Internet right now when they compare the pesticide levels between organic and non organic is that they don't even test the same thing. So they test completely different chemicals. And of course, if you test or one thing on this one thing and not on the other thing, then of course, you're going to say that this one thing doesn't have anything because you're not looking for it in the organic produce part. So it's usually a lot of the things that you find online are very biased. And another fun fact, 99.9% of the pesticides found in food are actually naturally occurring, and they're actually produced by the plants to naturally defend themselves against fungi and insects. But at the end of the day, you can't really avoid it. If it's all natural, you can find it in the food. Right. Yeah. And also another thing to take note of organic doesn't mean it's free of allergens. Organic doesn't mean it's healthier. I can probably link some studies because there has been numerous studies comparing the nutritional content between conventional foods and organic foods, and they have found no difference in nutritional content whatsoever. And at the end of the day, it just means that you pay more for your food. That's what buying organic products means. Yeah. That's basically how Emily and I kind of have summed it up in the past on this podcast is that if you can afford it, go for it. But don't think it's going to be any healthier for you because it's not. And you're probably just wasting your money to be honest. So teach their own. But if you can't afford it, don't feel like you have to feel guilty or like you're not eating more nutritious foods if you're not eating organic. Yeah. Actually, there's a social study that says that a lot of people shame one another for not buying organic produce, and it really affected the low income people who can't afford organic produce because they think, oh, I shouldn't be eating those conventional foods. Right. And there's no need to create fear around produce like that's the one that's the thing everyone to get more of so causing or putting shame towards eating fruits and veggies is not effective. Yeah. And even if, like, you might not be eating organic, which is completely fine. Even if you're making the efforts to eat like fruits and vegetables, you're doing great. Which is kind of the biggest barrier around organic produce versus, like, conventional produce is that financial barrier. And it's almost like very much organic food seems to be put on like a pedestal. And it's like if you eat organic, some people get superiority complexes around food they're eating, which like what you eat is not to find you in the first place, but also there's no need to, I guess, flaunt it and use it to put down others. But even like the grocery store, things that are organic are always, like, big, bold, bright. It's organic. It's better, like all the fruits and veggies at the store I usually go to the labels are all like, bright green. It was organic in big letters, and like a Trader Joe, for example, I love Trader Joe, so no shade at TJS. But all of their organic stuff says organic. And these big, bold, pretty letters on front. So you always know what's organic and what's not. So even the word organic is kind of like flaunting and stuff. It definitely plays into that marketing tactic. That is a common theme on this podcast. We discuss different ways that the food industry will try to persuade individuals with marketing tactics. And that's definitely one of them. When you said food industry, I was like, that's me, but I'm not one of them. You're one of the good ones, NIA. You're one of the good ones. Well, speaking of labels, that kind of brings us into our last little bullet point here. So, NIA, will you talk to us more about some common food labels that are on food products and kind of like the regulation behind these food labels. And if we should be fearful of certain things. And I know you've mentioned a lot of this already, but kind of going more into more specific, different food labels and what those actually mean? Yeah. So the entity that regulates food labeling is the FDA, and basically, they have a rule. I mean, their bottom line is that it shouldn't be misleading. And there are health claims you can put on there. Then again, only certain health claims are regulated. But then a lot of the things that you see in the market right now are actually not regulated by the FDA. And as consumers, we should make wise choices when we see those things. Is this just a marketing tactic or is this even legit? So a lot of the common food labels that I see my least favorite one, non GMO verified project. We just talked about GMOs earlier, and I think this is completely unnecessary. And the only body that regulates this is them, the non GMO verified project. It's not even the FDA. And honestly, I just think it's a waste of money because DNA testing is really expensive, and I assume that they have to do that in order to prove that the food is not GMO. A bit of a conflict of interest right there. When you're the one, you're the only one verifying your own label, I can make a label and regulate it. Emily approved. That's my. Well, I was going to say that Emily, and I saying we're the best podcast of 2021, but it's like paid on our own regulating company.
Participant #1:
You can even put that on your shirt or something. Dietitian approved. Does that even mean anything, right? Yeah. Like, just that one dietitian was like, cool. Good to go. Yeah. I was thinking I was like, we could do tuned approved, but we're the only one, like, regular. I know. Yeah. I can read off the other things that I've seen. Please do that are not regulated. Okay. The other one natural. We talked about this earlier, too. The FDA has no definition of the word natural clean label. That's also kind of like fear mongering and shaming a little bit, because they're already saying that certain foods are dirty. And the FDA also doesn't regulate that super food. That's also a big one no added hormones or antibiotic free, because
Participant #1:
that's another fun fact from the food industry. I'm just throwing a lot of fun facts right here from the food industry. We love fun facts. Yeah, before any produce, not produce. Sorry, any meat gets into our food supply in the store. I think the USDA actually requires them to test the meat for antibiotics, and if they detect just a little bit, they tell them, toss it out. So it's not possible for antibiotics to get in your meat because they do regulate that a lot. So when they put antibiotic free, it's very unnecessary because there's no antibiotics there to begin with. And another one relating to meat. Grass fed and locally grown. It's not like USDA goes to the farms. And okay, are you feeding your chickens and cow's grass? If not, you can't put this on your label. Is your cow from that guy's backyard? Because that's considered local. You know what I never thought about, especially locally grown, like, what is the radius on that? Locally grown could be the United States to me, compared to Asia because it's across the world. And also, I love the grass fed. They can feed them grass one day. But when they come in from the inspection like, oh, get the grassfeed out. Everyone put on a show, put on a show. The FDA is here. Okay. Are there any others near that you kind of wanted to talk about before we wrap up? We did have one of our friends that has Celiac on the show before, so we don't go too much into, like, gluten free. But if you want to touch on what that means, that'd be awesome. On the other hand, there are certain food labels that are regulated, and I can read through the ones that people should look out for. So, for example, Gluten free, that's very beneficial for people who have celiac. Sugar free is also very beneficial for people who have diabetic diabetes. Cruelty free because we don't condone testing in animals. Right. And I guess vegan or plant based for those that have a plant based diet, though they're not really regulated, but it's helpful and any allergen labeling. That's also very important if you're allergic to something. Yeah, that's good. I like that you include ones that actually are good to look for for those who need it. That's really important. Not all food labels are bad because some do have, I guess, good intentions, and they genuinely can't help a lot of people. Yeah, they have merit, that's for sure. Emily and I like to kind of wrap up and make a big summation of the bottom line of what we talked about today. So do you feel like there's one thing you kind of want to just if you could put our whole hour of whatever talking into one line, what would it be? Don't be scared of your food. I love it. The fear mongering is just so ineffective. Okay, now let's get to the fun part. I know NIA's got a really great answer for this one. I'm so excited. Thanks for hanging around. I know we had a lot to discuss, but this is all very important information that is kind of in your everyday life because we all eat food and you all grocery shop and see these labels. And I'm sure every single person that has or every person that's listening has had at least one of these conversations and one of these claims.
Participant #1:
Yeah. It's going to be a good episode because I hear this stuff every single day. So I'll just be, like, wasn't the episode whatever on my podcast. And I'll answer all your questions.
Participant #1:
Yes. Okay. So our fun bonus question of this episode is, what's the best pasta shape guest go first? You guys should start. No, we always have guests go first. Okay. Well, I approached this debate from a very food science perspective because I know there's probably some nerd out there that did some research about this, and so I did some research. Okay. A good pasta shape has to have these three things, how well it captures and holds the sauce, how easy to get on the fork and how satisfying it is to bite and see them. And so I was doing my research, and I found this book. It's literally a book about pasta. It's called Pasta by Design. It's a book created by the architecture professor from Harvard. Yeah. Like this guy legit. He just used his math skills to make a book about pasta and make a book about food change. How can we double dip our how can we put dicetics somewhere else? We'll brainstorm. But that's awesome.
Participant #1:
Yeah. And then this book basically explains the geometry of every pasta shape that exists. Isn't that crazy?
Participant #1:
According to this book, they created this book to work out the mathematical formulas of pasta and use the results to produce a culinary resource that is both beautiful and useful. I was going to say, this is the most nerdy bonus question. I think we've ever in such a good way. This is, like, amazing. But this is so funny. Okay, I'm ready to hear more about this. You guys did ask a food scientist a food question. So I have to present this from a food scientist perspective, right? Yeah. So basically, they use calculus to construct a 3D model of every possible shape that exists. And they did some math. And basically they came up with the shape. It's called a cascatelli. You can actually buy this in the store. I don't know if you can find it. I don't know. Probably like Whole Foods or something like those kind of fancy stores. But this pasta ship is called the cascapelli. We'll have to include a link of what this looks like because I'm looking at the picture, and I don't think I've ever seen this pasta before. No, I've never seen this in the market either. But I looked it up online and they do sell boxes of it basically, according to them, the shape results in much tastier pasta. And let me read some facts about it. So pasta tell you are like a short pasta shape with a flat strip and ruffles that stick out at a 90 degree angle. They are a mix of the Buccatini. I don't even know what that is. A Buccatini and masalda pasta, and they have, like, a half tube ribbon shape ruffle shape. And because of their excessive mass, this perfect pasta shape can capture up to 75% of the sauce, and it has slight variations in thickness and ruffles in the shape and provides a dynamic contrast in each bite, making it very satisfying to bite at a sensory level. It has right angles, which is apparently very rare in past shapes that can resist bite force from all directions, maximizing the sensation of how satisfying the shape fits on your teeth. And it has a larger shape than most single pasta shape, so it provides more work insertion points. So there it is. I don't even want to say my answer now. I don't even win. You win the debate. We don't have to continue. I could hear you talk about cascotelli all day long. That was amazing. I think for listeners, I'm going to try to describe what this looks like, so to try to imagine it, but it looks like almost, you know, those the ice skating protectors that like ice skaters slide on their blades. It kind of looks like one of those, like the plastic version, not the cloth foam version that goes over the blade, but make it more curvy. If that makes sense, or you can click the link we're going to include near you. That's what I thought, too, but Emily's was good. That's a good way of putting it. I would not have thought of it that way.
Participant #1:
Did you even have an answer? I did have an answer, but I don't have the evidence to back up anecdotal evidence. Yeah. With my own personal Emily approved pasta
Participant #1:
experience,
Participant #1:
I argue that the bow tie is the best pasta shape. I'm going to get roasted for this because I know I'm saying it wrong, but it also is called like, farafell or like, how do I say this? I don't know. Don't let me keep talking. Is it Farfall?
Participant #1:
I always say bowtie, but that's typically the name Google says you pronounce it farfalle. Farfale,
Participant #1:
like farfell. So then, like Italian and Spanish. You like, say the L e farfallet. Oh, that's so fancy. Okay, one. The name, I guess Cascadelia is pretty fancy, but Barkley. Hannah knows I'm very much a visual eater, so I really like when my food looks pretty and cool. So seeing like bow tie shapes makes me just very happy. I guess, in terms of going off of Hannah's three criteria, which I really like one. I believe bow tie holds off pretty well. And the little like the wings of the pretty well. Very easy to stab with a fork. Since they don't lay, like vertically. They normally lay flat in your bowl or plates. So very easy to stab. And then I would say, very satisfying to bite because of it has the fun little curb. And then it's fun to look at. No, I wonder if they ever ranked these pasta pasta shakes. Oh, I heard somewhere. It's somewhere on the Internet. Someone's like these are my opinions. Maybe we'll do that. No baseball,
Participant #1:
maybe. I mean, this person did it like these people did with their research. They probably gathered evidence about the others. They should share that information. I'd love to see their all inclusive list. Okay. I found on Google a definitive ranking of pasta shapes from worst to best. All right. But is it backed up by science because we're no, this is by some chick named Michelle who just has opinions about pasta. So it's kind of like what Emily and I are doing right now. Just having opinions. I actually was going to say bow tie as well. I really like bow tie, too. I actually agreed for once, I didn't know you both in terms of those three criteria. I think the most satisfying to buy into is a Penny like the tubular ones. It's just nice to get that two layers of pasta when you bite into it, like when squeezes together. But I think for the other criteria like Emily described already, I think a bowtie is my favorite. But I believe if I had this cascotelli, I would be easily swayed to want to choose that one. I'm going to go try to find this. Me, too. Like Posh and pretentious. I'll be like, I'm looking for your bestelli. Pair it with your fanciest wine, please. Yeah.
Participant #1:
Okay. Yeah. That was easily one of our best bonus questions ever. Yeah. Well, NIA, thank you so much for coming on this episode. It's going to be such an informational one for our listeners. That was just so much good information. So thank you so much for all that. Yeah. And I guess thank you for having me to kind of end it. Where can our listeners find you? What types of resources or links do you want to share with us? Obviously, we're going to include links to everything NEA wants us to share in the bio, but right now, this is kind of your time to plug whatever you'd like. I don't really have a professional account like Emily and Hannah. I have a personal account I post about my daily life in Hawaii, and I guess my name is kind of long, so whenever they tag me, you can find me there. Yeah. And also I did include some articles that are very interesting that I found about the things that I talked about. Yeah. All right. That is the end of this episode. Thank you for listening. We hope you tune in next week and until you have a great rest of your week. Yeah. All right, everyone. Bye bye.
